Bunkerville Was Never About The Cows

20 Comments on Bunkerville Was Never About The Cows

1. Well, I can’t fool you, Inspector Clouseau…err…Mr. White. I confess under the duress of your last post that not only am I an FBI infiltrator who voted for Bernie, but I also own a Che Guevara t-shirt. And I might have been among the many that sent dildos to Ammon Bundy during the Oregon standoff. I’ll try to do penance…

   • Yes, you are free to choose your own punishment now. Laugh it up. But the ever encroaching Statism will end up taking all our choices away.

     The Feds only killed some of Bundy’s cattle…including some good looking bulls…but sadly this is not an isolated incident.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_Livestock_Reduction
     In the book “Code Talkers” it rips a persons heart out to hear the tale of how these people animals were wantonly destroyed by the government without recourse. Animals they knew and loved. Moreover, the government just killed the animals…horribly burning them alive with screams and all…the author’s point was this was in the Depression era and the meat could have went to feed people. But no, the government just killed the animals outright.

     So, how heartless are you, do you not understand the Bundy’s had that same affection for their animals?

2. Almost all of the Clark County ranchers with Taylor Grazing Act allotments were bought out the County’s Tortoise program…funded by development fees from Clark County builders. Sure…assert they were forced out and lampoon the stupidity of much of what the program has done…but most ranchers received compensation for their very marginal operations nevertheless. The scurvy state of Bundy’s feral cows attests that the experiment of grazing the Mojave Desert is an abject failure…Bundy’s self-serving assertions notwithstanding. And this despite his access to Lake Meade and the Virgin River. Spend some time in the Mojave…you just might learn a thing or two.

   Also interesting that the majority of those “country bumpkins” (your words…not mine) in Burns and Bunkerville/Mesquite have not and do not support the Bundy’s. The Bundy’s couldn’t win an election for dogcatcher in either place…but out-of-staters sure know what is best despite the local’s better judgment. You might learn a little something from this too.

   Just talk to any Las Vegas Metro officer about the Bundy standoff and the subsequent ambush by the Millers of Officers Beck and Soldo. You might learn a little something from that as well. Most Metro officers consider the standoff and the Miller caper to be inseparably connected…though reasonable people may disagree. That’s why, if Bundy were acquitted and the “militia” points guns at cops when some future Democrat President moves to remove the cows yet again, I expect there will be a bloodbath. Particularly if Antifa and Black Lives Matter learns from a Bundy acquittal that they too have a Constitutional Right to defend themselves against cops at any of their demonstrations.

   Might be good to consider other points of view once in awhile…

   • The Millers were ejected from the Bundy ranch by the Bundy supporters.

     • So they say…you’d be hard pressed to convince most Metro officers of that. Metro’s attitude adds another reason this situation has passed from the Monte Python Circus stage and into the “get real” stage.

       It would also be refreshing if all the out-of-state Bundy supporters had more consideration and respect for the considered judgment of the long-suffering locals, a large majority of whom don’t drink the Bundy cool-aid. Nobody seems to care to ask “why??”

       • Lol, are you dizzy yet, Mr. Reber….the Bundy’s are specifically asking for the local government and State government to take precedence rather than the OUT-OF-STATE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

         And I have lived off-grid for the last two years and have to haul my water in 8 miles over a road that has to be driven at 10 MPH. In the winter I melt snow for water. So I am at least acquainted with both desert and non-convenient ways of living.
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23GXYo4ln3k

         It is baffling why you would assert they would want to run for elected office…THEY ARE CATTLEMEN! Is that the pinnacle of your mind…is that what your values esteem over everything else…to achieve power over other people? SEIG HEIL! AVE CEASAR!

         Consider other points of view…me? You have quite the tendency for ad hominem slights. Lol, in reading your last posts I have to laugh…you are swinging wide hoping something connects:

         “survy state of Bundy’s feral cows”…I’m sure the Bundy’s are sorry you don’t find their cows up to snuff.

         “(your words not mine)”…yes, I am sure those people who are real country bumpkins would call themselves that out of spite and honor…sort of like the “fly over country” people.

         “The Bundy’s couldn’t win”…lol, you sound little bitter there…almost envious…you wish you had the balls of the Bundy’s don’t you? Come on, you wish your existential vacuum did not suck to the point you can hardly lift your eyes passed all the government forms, taxes, licenses and bureaucratic laws they have trained you to have Pavlovian responses too. Good doggie!

         Poor man, your technical arguments take on the form of being comprehensive but when assessed fundamentally and with an accurate timeline all you can do is squirm and make ad hominem slights and shift the case in point to imaginary dangers (Antifa and Black Lives Matter).

         Is that how you fill your existential vacuum? Creating monsters that you can protect other people from? Well, I guess at a base exercise of Capitalism that is an facet of freedom…to create a market and fill it. Gosh, hope I didn’t insult you by calling you a Capitalist…but don’t worry, the marketing of fear has a lot of adherents so you are not alone.

3. Vin Suprynovicz was a former editorial page manager at the Las Vegas Review Journal. He wrote many things to which I agreed…but also some rather bat-shiite crazy stuff too. I remember he was fired…and was kinda surprised it didn’t happen sooner. Assertions that the Gold Butte area is better off with Bundy’s cows has to be taken with a large helping of skepticism…particularly when the assertion strains common sense observation and experience. BLM scientists assert this is nothing but the same old Bundy bull-manure…so who are we to believe?

   If I recall correctly, Cliff Gardner is from the Ruby Valley…which is NOT in the exceptionally dry Mojave Desert. Elko County has plenty of sagebrush, which does not grow in the Mojave Desert. I have much more sympathy for Gardner than for Bundy.

   Obviously, Cliven Bundy lives in his own reality…and is a law unto himself. He has bullied many people needlessly throughout the years. He has been quite adept at issuing veiled threats, such as “whatever it takes”. If you were at the standoff, you might have noticed that the vast majority of his supporters were his extensive family and people from out-of-state…particularly those “inbred bastards from Utah”. Many from Bunkerville/Mesquite quietly know him as a crazy bully. In my opinion, he has created a lose-lose situation for everyone…especially himself. Yesterday, his second attorney, Bret Whipple, filed to be removed from the case less than 3 weeks before the start of Bundy’s trial. His first attorney hadn’t been paid (big surprise) and was excused because he had medical issues. How ironic that the Bundy cool-aid drinkers whine about the denial of a “speedy trial”…and then these stunts are pulled last minute. I suppose this website will claim it is all Navarro’s fault…

   Mr. White, it is ironic that you insinuate that I somehow am slandering the Bundy cool-aid drinkers given the tone of articles on this web-site. Examples include: the dumb FBI Agent up for trial for falsifying a “shots fired” report is presumed guilty…Navarro is constantly slandered as corrupt…Finicum was “murdered” by the Oregon State Police (despite Finicum’s constant chants of “Shoot Me” or “they won’t take me alive”)…etc..

   Again, I appreciate the respectful discussion.

   • Your arguments are descending into ad hominem slights. I quoted a book to give perspective that the Bundy Ranch standoff was not a reaction to President Obama which you claimed…and your best response was to impugn Vin. And you never mentioned the dry facts reported by Vin…they were not opinions…they are facts of live and running cattle on those ranges.

     Nor is there any recognition of the fact that beyond Gardner and Bundy there are approximately 50 other Ranchers who went out of business. FIFTY +. What are those people doing now. Is it a surprise that if Gardner and Bundy fight things will get messy…being a Cattleman and not a Military Man, Bureaucrat, or full time Party Politician…is it supposed to be a surprise that his efforts come off like a bawling squalling untamed bull.

     Are his efforts to just run cattle over some miserable range no one else uses supposed to fit some Miss Manners etiquette guide?

     Good God man, wake up, sign up for the Federal Register and look at what is posted daily under the EPA, Interior Department, and Fish & Wildlife sections. Full length reports on the most obscure plants, insects and animals…a “scientist” who spent his adult time getting paid with Federal funds when the Feds cannot even abstain from Deficit Spending and raise the Debt Limit on a whim. It is a “make work” situation to which the “scientist” then owes allegiance to who pays his check and pension…and the “scientist” making conclusions that are dubious if not out right wrong…truncating human activity where people are just trying to make a living.

4. The policy of the Federal Gov’t since the Civil War has been to divest itself of its land…by giving it away through the Homestead Act. Now if the land to be divested had sufficient water for farming…well…no problem. Just look at Eastern Colorado (which is relatively dry compared to Illinois) but where large-scale farming can still be done without extensive irrigation. That land was homesteaded fairly quickly (and we know about the subsequent “Dust Bowl” during the 1930s.)

   But Nevada is the driest state in the Union…and Clark County is the driest County in that State. The Mojave Desert is the driest desert in all North America. Even with all the land within the borders of the state, without water, there isn’t much that can be done with it. Which is why before extensive electrification (wells) the Federal Gov’t couldn’t even give it away under the Homestead Act. Which explains the 80% of the state still under Federal control. The Eisenhower Administration tried to divest itself of all BLM lands to the states, but was fiercely opposed by the Cattleman’s Associations who feared state taxes and who liked the Federal subsidies that came with their grazing permits at that time. With the environmental movements starting in the 1970s, Federal policies became increasingly more restrictive…and the cattlemen even had to start paying grazing fees. Still…almost all cattle ranchers (except Bundy) recognize they still have a smoking deal even with the grazing fees.

   The Cattlemen’s Associations finally were able to have the Homestead Act repealed in 1976, which they had traditionally opposed as it threatened to reduce the land available for their grazing allotments…”dirt farmers” have been the bane of Western cattle ranchers.

   If you look at cattle production nationwide, Florida alone easily surpasses all of the Western States combined…because it rains and there is an abundance of grass. From a macro perspective, cattle production from off Federal land grazed under the Taylor Grazing Act is very small indeed. It all comes to the availability of water. The impact of cattle production from off Federal land is quite negligible, and would be scarcely noticed at the meat counter in stores even locally.

   I agree that the Gold Butte National Monument declared by Obozo is overreach…and that the area around Valley of Fire is much more interesting as far as tourism is concerned. Whitney Pockets and the petroglyphs in and around Little Finland are worthy of protection, as is perhaps Devil’s Throat. The “ghost town” of Gold Butte is hardly worth the wear on tires…just ain’t nothin to see there.

   Bundy never had permission to graze his cattle on the Lake Meade National Recreation Area. Lake Meade and his access to the Virgin River perhaps has made Bundy’s operation more viable than the ones bought out by Clark County during the 1990s. Gold Butte in the Mojave Desert, unfortunately for Bundy, really doesn’t appear to be intended by the Creator to be a cow pasture, in my opinion. Fact is, Bundy lets his cows graze far beyond the bounds of his allocation boundaries, and has encroached on areas even bought out by Clark County. Which is why every time Bundy went before a court of law arguing his ridiculous legal and historical theories…he lost.

   So with the atrocious administration of Obozo alarming Tea Party types, Bundy convinced ill-educated supporters to act as human shields for the “militia” to point guns at cops who are attempting to enforce legitimate court orders. Resisting arrest has never been protected by the Constitution…under “use of force” guidelines, Drexler and Parker legitimately could have been shot for pointing guns as everyone knows they did. All those human shields around them made that quite problematic. I agree with Gov. Sandoval and Sheriff Gillespie that no cow is worth the life of a human. Just wish Bundy had the same respect for human

   Mr. White, I appreciate the respectful exchange of opinions…though I’m sure we will still disagree. Unfortunately for the Bundy supporters, they are in a tiny minority, and their reasoning evaporates when confronted with facts.

   • Again, Mr. Reber, you do throw some interesting angles into the debate…and you do include some details of which I am not able argue such as what ranges were used and when.

     That being said, no, the stand-off at the Bundy Ranch was not a reaction to ex-President Obama nor are Tea Party types liable for the condemnations of being “ill-educated” and “evaporating reason”.

     In “The Ballad of Carl Drega” by Vin Suprynowicz a book printed in 2002 there is an essay titled “January 14, 2001: The State-Established Religion of Environmentalism”…in which Cliven’s case plays a major role…moreover, Mr. Suprynowicz refers to Mr. Bundy in other essays in that book.

     That documentation is a full 11 years before the Bundy ranch standoff, and seven years before Obama’s election, and by a highly accredited Journalist…not to mention the other liberty minded people in the book concerned about the Federal Governments overreach.

     I am pleased to offer some snippets from “The Ballad of Carl Drega” in response to your observations about water and whether the land can be used for pature…there are answers in these essays from 2001.

     * Like many long-time Nevadans, Wilkin remembers when the game herds were thick on the land those animals shared with Nevada’s cattlemen. He’s seen the campaign by government regulators to move the cattle off the land (Clark County retains only two of what were once 50 ranching families – and the federals have been trying to run Cliven Bundy off his Mesquite allotment for eight years now)…walling off humans access to swatches of real estate the size of New England states under a brand of “environmental protection” that forbids cattle or sheep from grazing back the forage, which subsequently dries out and leads directly to our current wave of catclysmic wildfires.

     * In fact – here Dr. Wilkin agrees with long-time Nevada ranchers as Cliven Bundy and Cliff Gardner – the journals of the first white men to cross Nevada found it so bereft of game the Indians were reduced to eating insects, while the travelers often considered eating their pack animals to make it through.

     Thick herds of deer and flocks of game birds showed up only after ranchers moved in to improve the water features (clearing springs, building tanks and ponds);…

     * And each and every one of these shells had a hole pecked through the top where the raven had brought the baby tortoises back to their and pecked through the shell and eaten the baby tortoise right out of the shell…In fact, when “desert tortoise preservation” became the main rationale for pushing most of southern Nevada’s cattle ranchers off the land, Harry remembered the ranger from California with his bags of tortoise shells….

     * In arid Nevada, no rancher can make a go of it on the 160 or 320 acres his granparents were allowed to homestead…to run 300 to 500 head…requires thousands of acres. Thus, Western ranchers have always grazed their cattle on the adjoining public lands.

     The question is: What does”public” mean? Do the ranchers have an established property right – a grazing right – just as both State and common law across the West acknowledges private citizens may have legitimate mining or water or right-of-way claims on that land, established both through paper-work “filings” and through years of habit and custom and adverse possession, which cannot be overturned by mere bureaucratic whim?

     Or does the federal government – as Judge Johnnie Rawlinson has brazenly asserted in the similar case aimed at driving Clark County cattle rancher Cliven Bundy off his Mesquite Allotment – literally own all this land, with “plenary” rights to kick anybody off, any time they please?

     “January 28, 2001: Eviction of Western Ranchers ‘Amounts to a War of Religions'”

     * It was the winter of 1999 when I toured the Mesquite Allotment – 60 miles northeast of Las Vegas – with one of Clark County’s last two cattle ranchers, blue-eyed Cliven Bundy.(Needless to say, the federals have been working to drive Cliven out of business for even longer than they’ve been after Cliff Gardner – seven years for Cliff; eight years for Cliven. Cliven responded by “firing” the BLM – “I don’t sign their contracts and I don’t pay their fees and I don’t expect any services from ’em,” he declares….)

     * At the time, Cliven and I squatted to examine some mighty spindly ground cover, the third generation rancher explaining to me how the browsing of the plant by the cattle clears room for the new green shoots to come in each spring.

     I must have expressed some amazement at the idea that cattle could survive by eating such stuff in the first place.

     “A calf only learns what to eat out here because his momma shows him what to eat.” Cliven responded, serious.

     …and then there is more about the tortoise people asking Cliven to take his cattle of the range while the Tortoises are breeding. Imagine having a real live conversation with a full grown man about removing cattle off the range so turtles can f**k.

     And more and more and more pertaining to Endangered Species, permits and waiting periods while multiple agencies sign off on permits and motions being denied.

     So Mr. Reber, contemplate how Cliven, Ammon, and Ryan in 2001 were real flesh and blood people and have in thier minds this essay written then..and the people involved…Doctors and esteemed Journalists. And contemplate the reason of the arguments made and the interval of 11 years until the Bundy ranch standoff.

     To make the claim the Bundy’s engaged in a conspiracy to convince dim-witted country bumpkins to rebel against the government is fairly close to slander. It is beneath honest debate…it is a ad hominem attack…and it is beneath the complexity and time table of the situation.

5. Wow. The delusion runs so deep. The standoff didn’t end until the cows were released…but somehow this isn’t about cows?? Bundy has threatened violence for 30 years to protect his cows, so when law enforcement attempts to bring sufficient force to remove his cows (there are those cows again!!), Bundy manages to bring in militia and human shields for that militia for the “range war” he has wanted for decades…and it isn’t about cows?? Bundy puts the fools who drink his cool-aid into harms way…demonstrating he holds his cows more valuable than the lives of his supporters…and it isn’t about cows?? The only reason we don’t have a Ruby Ridge or Waco is that Gov. Sandoval and Sheriff Gillespie convince the BLM that no cow is worth the loss of a human life…and somehow this isn’t about cows??

   Bundy supporters have had lots of fun “sticking it to the MAN” with all of this…pointing guns at cops and spreading sovereign citizen BS…but “The MAN”…incompetent as he may be…is now sticking it to Bundy and his cool-aid drinkers. Everyone loses in this case…including “the People” who own the land and who have given Bundy the exclusive right under the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act to graze Gold Butte…crony capitalism from the Roosevelt Administration. Since this really is about the cows, and Bundy refused to pay his grazing fees, it is only just that his cows be removed.

   • I guess you haven’t been informed. Cliven did pay grazing fees till 1997 until the Department of Interior shut down most of his grazing privileges, attempted to block the other half under a National Park Theft and refuse another due to some Tortoise idea.

     He like many of us ask ourselves – WHAT IN THE WORLD is the East Coast doing renting states their own freak-en land? Don’t state borders mean anything? Well it turns out with a little historical research – cliven is right. The U.S. clear back to Madison intended STATES to govern the LAND in their borders ( Seems like a “duh” moment to many of us. ) The whole idea of the Union of States ( Federal ) holding land hostage isn’t any part of their Constitutional duties.

     Progressive – “happening or developing gradually or in stages; proceeding step by step”
     Communist – “a society in which all property is publicly owned”

     • Perhaps a brief history summary is in order:

       The anti-Federalist Jefferson knowingly and deliberately violated the Constitution when he purchased Louisiana from Napoleon in 1803…and the courts have upheld Federal land ownership beyond those enumerated 10 square miles ever since. The “equal footing” doctrine of the Northwest Ordinance was never in the Constitution. Ordinances can and will change over time…as it did when Congress admitted Nevada as a state in 1864. Robert E. Lee surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia to one U.S. Grant at Appomattox…and I don’t believe Grant was a “county sheriff”. Much of the way the 9th and 10th Amendments (“States Rights”) were interpreted–whether you like it or not–was surrendered with Lee’s Army. Given that the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act grants exclusive privileges to welfare ranchers like Bundy (“crony capitalism” at its worst), one could argue the Constitutional prohibition of “titles of nobility” was violated because such privileges are the essence said titles.

       I agree that it is high time “the people” reclaim their land and evict the freeloading Bundy and his cows from off the public commons, which he has abused for way too long.

       I respectfully disagree that I am misinformed. I would assert that Bundy has sold his supporters a load of manure with his tortured and self-serving interpretation of the Constitution and of history.

       • I must say I am on the opposing side of your argument but at least you throw some interesting nuggets into the pot. That being said, in what realm of reality can it even be argued that the Federal Government owning 80% of Nevada appear to be right?

         And to add some depth to the topic, as a liberty loving person and not liking socialism that does not mean I don’t understand socializing policies, and what you call the support of welfare ranchers is what also keeps the price of beef from being $3.00 a pound one year and $25.00 a pound another for a variety of reasons. I prefer the free market in principle but I do understand the leveling and appearingly stabilizing effects of price supports/subsidies and controls in the short term (the long term effect is the degeneration of our monetary system due to government intervention…however, embracing the free market and honest money means accepting the wildly varying prices that can occur due to supply and demand).

         That facet spotlights the point that this land grab is not about the cows or the fees…since the government could write it off as supporting a “welfare rancher” so the price of beef will be stable for the citizenry at large…it is about the land and the plans those in privileged positions can wring out of it (e.g. Senator Harry Reid)…so now, touche, apply the Constitutional prohibition of “titles of nobility” being violated by those in positions of authority because such privileges are the essence of said titles, if you want to talk about abuse of privileges and power.

         You might say, “A Senator has the right to privilege and power”…and that is true…however, look at how many Ranchers around the Bundy’s have went out of business since the 1980’s? With part of the reason being Federal Regulation and the costs of compliance by an out of control Federal Bureaucracy…when in fact the land use in question should be a State issue…which is a large part of Bundy’s argument.

         Have you seen the public land in question? What is going to happen with it that a few wandering cattle would interrupt? THAT is the real question. I live in a sea of BLM land in northeastern Nevada and expect the cattle to return to this range about October 1st…and that is all they do…range about. There is NOTHING virtuous about “the people” reclaiming their land when they have no intention of doing anything with the land. And stop and think about that…what are the Bundy’s doing WITH the land…not much at all…the cattle eat some sagebrush and scrub-brush and fertilize the ground. It is not like the Bundy’s are strip mining or hauling away timber. The sum total of their cattle’s intrusion is some sagebrush and scrub-brush get eaten. Talk about an over-blown cry of foul play.

6. Great summary of the Facts!

   And the RICO Act is there to stop dirty HARRY REID & his appointed BLM Director NEIL KORNZE; his nominated chief fed judge GLORIA NAVARRO; &, their other henchmen ravaging our lives, liberty & property rights: https://fedlaws.xyz/

7. Yes, we did eventually leave Bundy Ranch and return home, but our lives would never be normal or everyday again.I may have headed to Nevada rather impulsively after seeing a full on Police state in action,but little did I know! We came away invested and committed to this fight,sharing a great spirit and camaraderie and on the road – though we didn’t know it at the time – to Sugar Pine, Big Sky, Malhure, Portland, and now Vegas. WE ARE NOT GOING AWAY, AND WE WON’T SHUT UP ! We are making history folks. Join us….

8. President Trump and Attorney General Sessions, Please put a stop to these out of control police state activities. We demand freedom…!!!

9. It is heartening to see these principled State Representatives step up in defense of their constituents, but this well founded complaint to the Attorney General bears a strong kinship to another petition for redress, the one sent to Governor Kate Brown of Oregon on behalf of the Hammonds. As we all know, that petition, despite bearing thousands of signatures, was completely ignored by Brown. Our demonstration at Malhure was the last ditch, after all appeals had failed. Will this petition from Idaho be ignored as well ? If the record of cavalier, disdainful behavior by the fed is any indication, this petition will fall on deaf ears. What of the Reps who signed this? will the scales fall from their eyes ?

10. This Bundy et al case points up two home truths, that power is the enemy of liberty, and that the “Government Interest” is enemy to the public interest. In a scenario become all too familiar, the charges leveled against the Bundys – Lies and deceit…threats and intimidation..conspiracy…a “Show of force”… are the very crimes committed by the Govt. If an invasion of armed BLM goons,helicopters and snipers is not a show of force, I don’t know what is. There are so many threads in this narrative that choosing one to discuss here is a conundrum, but focusing on the next trial – Barring an intervention by Sessions to stop the insanity – You could wonder just what gross skullduggery is left to Navarro and her Gang. As Shari has noted above, they went after Scott, Rick, Eric and Steve like a personal vendetta AND STILL FAILED ! How could they rig this next trial any more than the last ? “Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result” ?

    • Simple. Jury tampering. It remains to be seen if the prosecution and their pet judge are desperate enough to go there, but it would not surprise me. In the meantime, it is past time for the rest of the nation to add our voices to those of Idaho’s legislators (https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact). I suggest a tone of respectful insistence.